Ask a Queer Cosmetic Chemist
My interview with Ramón Pagán
Hey readers, sorry it took so long to get this one out to you, but as the French say: soo la voo! I’m here today with one of my favorite interviews I’ve done to date. This month, I talked with Ramón Pagán, otherwise known as glowbyramon online. Ramón, a self-proclaimed “child of the world,” is loosely based in Central Florida but talked with me out of a beautiful spot in London. Ramón is a cosmetic chemist, product developer, aesthetician, and a content creator. He identifies as a cisgender, Puerto Rican gay male.
Ramón and I talk about makeup, ingredients in cosmetics, “clean” testing apps, and more. This one is so good. Ramón was a treat to talk to, and so gracious to talk to little old me! Hope you enjoy as much as I do.
Dani Janae:
Okay, so here's some meaty questions. Was a love of the sciences cultivated in you as a child or is that something that you explored on your own?
Ramón Pagán:
That's a really good question. I liked science and I was really into different facets of science. My dad was really into tech specifically, so for him, his job dealt with maintaining and building equipment used in hospitals. He could build a whole computer from just, I guess, scrap parts. So that was definitely something that I was surrounded by.
But in terms of what I'm doing right now, cosmetic chemistry was never an interest. I was good at chemistry in school, but real talk, I think when I was a kid, I actually really wanted to be a knitwear designer.
Dani Janae:
Oh.
Ramón Pagán:
Yeah.
Dani Janae:
Awesome.
Ramón Pagán:
I love to knit. I taught myself how to knit when I was 10. And I guess something that really kind of planted a seed that's always been with me is if I want to do something, I always find the resources to do it and learn it and run with that. So that's really been a big factor in this career I am in now. Just trying to figure out what it is I need to do to get there and how to do it.
Dani Janae:
Okay, yeah. Are you still into doing knitwear stuff?
Ramón Pagán:
I am, actually. I still regularly knit. I love knitting, it's very relaxing. I crochet as well. And actually, I've been thinking about trying to find some sort of knitwear design course.
Dani Janae:
Yeah, totally. That's really cool. So this pertains to what we are just talking about, but was chemistry your first choice? Or was it more of a journey to get there?
Ramón Pagán:
It was definitely a journey. Again, I was really good at chemistry when I was in school, and it was something, because it's so logical, math-based, everything I've ever done, if it can be simplified down into an equation, basically, I will understand it very well.
For example, another interest of mine is language. Language, to me, it's very mathematical. So because chemistry made sense to me, it was easy. Biology, on the other hand, that's a mystery. I was never good at biology, but ironically, biology still plays a big part in what I do.
But I started going to school for biochemistry when I was 23. So I started this journey kind of late, I'm almost 30 this year. And I started that knowing I wanted to be a cosmetic chemist, but going to school in the US was really difficult, so I transitioned to going to school in Europe, where the coursework was more specific. And once I got into this coursework, I was like, "Okay, no, this is the right path. This is the right thing for me." And ironically, while I'm a cosmetic chemist, there's so much about this career that's not chemistry focused, thankfully.
Dani Janae:
Totally. Okay. So now we have some more cosmetic chemist focused questions. When you were studying to become a cosmetic chemist, was it because you already had an interest in makeup and skin care, or did that come later?
Ramón Pagán:
No, it was definitely, I loved cosmetics. I loved beauty. It stemmed from, I had really bad acne growing up. And with the acne, the pigmentation that was associated with it, and it was trying to... When you struggle with that, which is why a lot of us who actually became content creators kind of have a very similar start, you want to learn, “okay, what is causing this? How do I remedy it? What do I look for in products? If a product works for me, what specifically is it?” So it was always looking at ingredients.
But then also covering it up, makeup was a big thing of mine. So I was also like, "Okay, what textures do I like? What finishes do I like?" And that was the inception of it, and I was like, "I want to work in this. How do I get into this?" So that was what pushed me into wanting to get into this industry.
And then sunscreen was not a big thing of mine. My content actually is a big basis of it is sunscreen, sunscreen knowledge education. That was an accident. I do love sunscreen, but that was an accident in itself.
Dani Janae:
Totally. So the reason that I specifically was seeking out a cosmetic chemist to talk to was because I was seeing a lot of stuff online, and I am very into makeup, so a lot of the makeup world... Well, people in the makeup world were talking about ingredients like talc and mica, and those ingredients get labeled as unsafe. So I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how those ingredients get labeled as unsafe, and are they something that people should really avoid? Or is it an in small doses sort of thing?
Ramón Pagán:
That's a great question. Love that question. To your point, sometimes dose is the really big factor. On that note, you have a really big thing right now is there's these apps and one of them is called Yuka. And people love Yuka because they're like, "Oh, it has studies that showcase that these ingredients are bad for you." And I'm like, "If you look at those studies, first of all, the dose is in the poison." They are giving or exposing mice to 50 times the dosage that you would ever be exposed to as a human in these cosmetics. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but for context. Obviously, if you as a person drink 50 liters of Coca-Cola, that's not going to be good for you. So that's how I liken Yuka. Also, they use the EWG as a resource, and the EWG is heavily biased through lobbying, so it's not a very reliable source.
Talc, you touched on talc, is a really big one right now. What I will say is any powder poses an inhalation risk, and so a lot of them are recognized as carcinogenic if inhaled. So I think that's one thing that talc kind of falls under. Titanium dioxide does as well, but that's actually one of the safest ingredients applied topically, but people don't associate it's applied topically, doesn't mean you can inhale it. And then, let me think. The thing with talc now, for example is, so there was the lawsuit from, I think it was Johnson & Johnson.
Dani Janae:
Yes.
Ramón Pagán:
First of all, anyone can sue, in the US, any company for any reason. It doesn't have to be legitimate. But due to the association of that, now there's just a big stigma as well around the ingredients, so a lot of brands are trying to steer away. So you see at Sephora right now, a lot of brands are actually going talc-free. Haus Labs by Lady Gaga is one of them.
In Europe, the full natural, all natural movement's even more strong. I did some time in Germany, and the German and French market are very hyper clean, hyper good for you, hyper natural. So talc reformulation was actually a big thing I worked on last year.
But, yeah, a lot of these unsafe or not good for you toxic claims, like you mentioned, it's dose, it's misinterpretation of studies, or it's just a matter of the manner in which it's applied. You can't inhale this, but it's safe for you to apply it topically.
Dani Janae:
Okay. Thank you for answering that.
Ramón Pagán:
That was a long answer. I'm sorry, that's long.
Dani Janae:
No, that's totally fine. I love long answers. With that in mind, I'm just curious about your thoughts on Sephora, and I think Ulta has this too, but the clean beauty, or I forget what it's called at Ulta, but it's just clean beauty in general, that movement. What are your thoughts on that shift, for consumers and for brands alike?
Ramón Pagán:
Yeah. In my sector, this behind the scenes portion of it, first of all, from a consumer perspective, it presents a lot of difficulties. It's really hard to get super elegant, really high quality formulations if the focus is high, high naturality. And natural doesn't necessarily mean safe. There's a lot of ingredients that are still considered clean, even if they are not natural necessarily.
A lot of what, for example, Sephora has under their clean program is really just European cosmetic regulations, so it's already stuff that we have to adhere to in Europe. But also, on top of that, just some extra things. They tend to err on the caution of where this ingredient was controversial. Instead of educating consumers, we're just going to say that that's unclean. I saw, going back to Haus Labs, I think they have... What was the marketing claim? It's like “questionable ingredients” or whatever. So it's just not even saying unclean, they're just saying, "There's some question marks around this ingredient. We're going to avoid it."
I always look at brands who choose to ignore that or would rather educate their consumers. I always see them a little bit more respectfully because you're taking the time to actually explain to your customers, "Hey, that's not a bad ingredient, it's not unsafe. Therefore, we're going to continue to use it."
But the other thing is, for a lot of brands who do adhere to that, we have a clean standard, they do incentivize the brands underneath them. That if you do whatever you need to do to become clean under us, we'll give you extra resources. So it's also, the brands kind of lean into it too underneath the retailers. But, yeah, it just kind of feeds, again, this unhealthy mindset around your cosmetics. There's rules in place for how we can formulate and what we put in your products at what levels. The intent is never to hurt or harm. No brand wants to get sued. That's money that's going to get spent on lawsuits, but it just unintentionally fuels more fear.
Dani Janae:
Yes, totally. My next question is about pressed pigments. How do those differ from a standard eyeshadow?
Ramón Pagán:
Pressed pigments. Where is an example of that?
Dani Janae:
I think ColourPop and some other brands have a warning on them that are like, "This is a pressed pigment. It's not safe to use on the eye or around the eye," that sort of thing.
Ramón Pagán:
Okay. Yes, yes, I got it. When it comes to any cosmetics, and this is applying in this instance to pigments, there are certain things that can be used around certain areas of the body versus others. So when you're considering the lip or the eye, those are basically mucus membranes. They're also essentially direct channels to internal pathways. So certain ingredients are approved for use in those areas, some aren't. And that's why, you say ColourPop, I remember Huda.
Dani Janae:
Yes.
Ramón Pagán:
Huda Beauty had a thing about that. So that's their liability waiver essentially, like, "Hey, this is a pressed pigment. It's not approved as an eyeshadow or a lip color." So us putting this here, this disclaimer, takes a little bit of liability from us because we're telling you it's not approved for use around the eye, so if you choose to do so, it's kind of on you.
Dani Janae:
Yes.
Ramón Pagán:
But it's just that it's just nothing that's been approved for safe use around the eye or the mouth. Therefore, it's not an approved pigment, it's a pressed pigment.
Dani Janae:
Yeah. Okay.
Ramón Pagán:
We're not saying it's an eyeshadow because we're not telling you to use this around the eye. It's a pressed pigment powder.
Dani Janae:
Yeah. Okay, got it. Yeah, I saw that today too, with… it was the Haus Labs liquid pigments, those are also... There's the red one and the pink one, you're not supposed to use them on your eye. So I was like, "That's interesting."
Ramón Pagán:
Yeah. Sometimes you'll have multi-sticks.
Dani Janae:
Yes.
Ramón Pagán:
And that's the thing. They're like, "We can use it on the cheek and the lip. Around the eye, this is a pressed pigment, not an eyeshadow."
Dani Janae:
Yeah. Okay. So this is a question about your work environment or work in general, but does your queerness ever become relevant or intersect with what you do on a daily basis?
Ramón Pagán:
As of right now, no. It's interesting because I've noticed every professional lab environment I've worked with, I'm the only queer person. And the thing with me is, we call it a one-mile gay. From one mile away, you can clock it. You're like, "That is a..." I'm a very effeminate man. I have this voice, I have my mannerisms. I have never been made to feel unsafe or been discriminated against in that, thankfully.
Which is part of why I do what I do with content, is I'm unapologetically me. I'm very open about who I am and what I do. And the goal is always, if I look like you or you resonate with me, because I do this job, you can do this. You should get into this industry because we need more queer people, we need more trans and non-binary individuals in this industry. Especially because, realistically, well, I'm not going to say we're the primary consumers of beauty, but the beauty industry in our world is such a major thing, in the queer spaces.
But yeah, in the professional space in the lab, you don't see a lot of queer people. That being said, I've never worked for a huge, huge beauty conglomerate like a Johnson & Johnson, L'Oreal, so I can't speak for those.
Dani Janae:
Okay. Okay. What's an ingredient in cosmetics or skin care that you think is underrated and one that you think is overrated?
Ramón Pagán:
Overrated first. I feel like a go-to, actually, no, I don't hate this. I just did a video about this today, vitamin C.I love vitamin C, do not get me wrong. It's good at what it does, but I think people are just so fixated on it has so many years of research and so much evidence. And I'm like, "Yeah, but it's so hard to work with and it's such a finicky ingredient." And based off of what it is you want out of vitamin C, you can find ingredients that are just easier to work with and more beneficial for that specific benefit. It's good to have in a routine, but I think it's not the star that everyone makes it out to be.
Dani Janae:
Yeah.
Ramón Pagán:
Underrated is a good question though. There's so, so, so many. I think a personal favorite of mine, panthenol.
Dani Janae:
Oh, I haven't heard of that one.
Ramón Pagán:
Panthenol, it's vitamin B5. Its primary function is it soothes, it hydrates, it conditions. It's good for skin and hair. And yeah, it's just nice. I'm someone who I exfoliate too much. I mess up my skin way too much. Panthenol is one of those that I can always resort to and it's going to calm everything down, soothe, moisturize.
Dani Janae:
Okay, cool. That's one I'll have to look into.
Ramón Pagán:
Definitely recommend.
Dani Janae:
Okay, so these are two listener questions that I have. Do you engage with beauty justice/unequal exposures in your work?
Ramón Pagán:
What's an example of that?
Dani Janae:
I should have asked, but I'm not sure. That's a concept that I haven't heard of, but I thought maybe you might've.
Ramón Pagán:
Repeat that again, sorry.
Dani Janae:
Do you engage with beauty justice/unequal exposures in your work? I can email the person and ask them to expand on that and then email you their response and then see if you have an answer you can type out.
Ramón Pagán:
Yeah, because I feel like, based on what I'm assuming that could be, I'm like that could be a really interesting question, but I want to answer it accurately.
Dani Janae:
Okay, I will do that. Okay, and then the second one is, how long does face sunscreen stay effective once applied? And any non-sticky/non-pasty white recommendations?
Ramón Pagán:
Yes, so that's a really good question. That's my specialty. The recommendation, and it really comes down to, from a formulation basis, we call it, what's the emulsion type? So it's like you have generally an emulsion as a mixture of oil and water generally, and it's what's the primary phase, the water or the oil? If it's more oil based, those are going to last longer. And those are the ones you will see have the water and sweat resistant claims on them. Generally, if you see water and sweat resistant on a sunscreen, it's going to be a little bit more heavy duty, robust. Water-based ones, you can see those claims as well, and those are going to be a lot more lightweight as well. But you just have to know what to look for when you're saying those things. But that's why, generally, if a sunscreen lasts a long time, sometimes it's not going to feel the best on your skin.
But the thing is, and I actually posted a video about this today on my Instagram, there are some sunscreens that are tested. The brands did the work to test them, and they're like, "Oh, even after eight hours of just everyday wear, you're still going to get the SPF 50 we advertise." But not a lot of brands do that, and it's actually European brands. But no matter what, for every sunscreen, it's still recommended to reapply every two hours if you're under prolonged exposure. Just because, I'm oily, I have oily skin.
Dani Janae:
Me too.
Ramón Pagán:
Your oils break down the sunscreen film that has to form. Or sometimes people just touch their face, people rub their face just through wear and tear. I blow my nose a lot. People wipe their mouths a lot, wipe their foreheads a lot. That friction's going to rub off or compromise their protection. And so, just through that, that's why it's recommended every two hours no matter what the formula is. But yeah, if you want a more heavy duty sunscreen, look for sweat and water resistant.
My favorite, if you're in the US, if you want a heavy duty sunscreen that doesn't feel nasty, Banana Boat has, it's called their Light As Air. Banana Boat? Yeah, Banana Boat Light As Air. They have a face formula. I will say the face one is going to be the lightest weight one. They have a regular one too, that everyone says is good, but I've only used the face one and it really is light as air.
And then another option I'd recommend, Black Girl Sunscreen, they have a Make It Matte one. The only thing with that one is it's dimethicone and some people don't like that texture. If they want, and the thing is, a lot of brands have duped that formula, technically Supergoop did the formula first, but Trader Joe's has basically the same exact formula for $8.
Dani Janae:
Oh, okay. Good to know.
Ramón Pagán:
Yeah. It feels like silicone on the face, but it's lightweight. It's water, it's wet resistant.
Dani Janae:
Okay. Cool.
Well, that's all the questions that I have for you. Thank you so much for doing this.
Ramón Pagán:
Okay. Of course, thank you for reaching out. Again, thank you so much for being patient. If any other questions pop up or that person emails you back, let me know. I'm happy to answer whatever.